How long before a player realizez the importance of position

[Clownboy R]

This is just a little thread to reidderate the importance of table position.
I remember about 4 years ago when I was kinda new to online poker and still had a lot to learn about tournament play, the lack of understanding I had for positioning.
I notice a lot of new an up in coming players also have the same problums I did.
It took about 2 years to grasp the importance of position and selective aggression.
I just want to state that I see a lot of Funny plays as people over bet or try to bluff out of position with a really suspisious hand like 2-4 os and think when they hit the river or turn card to win the hand they acctually think that they know how to play.
This is a reality check no critisizm intended ,just a note to all the newbees to realize the importance of position and Selection of playable hands.
Any Bloak can get lucky it takes a Master to know how and when to play. I have like 4 years under my belt and still have a few things to learn.
I Just hope this post gives a few pearls of wisdom to those who seriously want to learn to play.

[tjp3rd]

have to agree with you. I think playing your position is actually more important than the cards your dealt. You need to know when to play "undesirable hole cards" as well as knowing when or when not to raise with great hole cards. Position dictates everything because the odds go for or against you depending how many people stay in the hand.

Good post and great advice

[Clownboy R]

tjp3rd you do now some wisdom I must say.

For instance Poket Ks-Kd
out of position say in 2nd or UTG isn't nearly as good as being in the right spot, or On the button or in the Blinds posibly even the Cut off,Because.
IF you do Raise 5X-10X or All in Pre-flop you still have 4-6 other players to act without being able to read the Quality or Value of the hand they are holding.
Also I might add you are giving the other players a read of your hand by pushing it out of position.
I believe good hands are best played When you know they are good at the point that you are betting into the pot.
A lot of luckybox or Novice moves consist of a Player getting A good hand and then way overplaying it.
So 3 things to note.
I:Always get value for the best starting hands

II:If you get out Drawn don't over Play a possible losing hand If you might have possibly been out Stymeed on the Flop or Turn.

III: Finally never overplay a bad hand or good hand out of position. You might be in for a nasty surprize called "The Rail."

I Call these the Three Clown Pearls o Wisdom.
I learned all this the hard way,

Having position is a distinct advantage If you are holding BS or the Nutz.
Also I must say I have benifited from playing with some skiilled Players.
This helps Increase the rate you can learn the Odds and Ends.
Hope this helps

[sheepodog]

Yeah, imma slow learner too lol...it took me close to 2 years to appreciate the value of position, although I did understand the concept. I was always bucking the trend. Then I played in a huge freeroll, played correctly, folded when i was out of position and saw that it payed dividends. I made 3rd place and $3500 in a trny that I'm sure I'd have been out in 50 or 60th. The better the players at your table, the more valuable position is. My biggest problem with it, is that when I'm tired in a trny, I revert back to SheepoDONK, and innevitably lose the stack that it took 3 hours or more to accumulate.

Of course paying attention to position is something that you learn just as you play along and you've got to take advantage of it against players who are not so experienced (like me!!!)..I think I have still to learn about this

I just think the KK example is not the right one in my opinion to explain this...Wouldn't you make a big raise or even go all-in with the second best possible hand just because you're UTG?? I would!

I see instead many players raising or just calling UTG with A4-A5 etc and then fold when reraised or forced to go all-in with such terrible hands, that's a mistake I think you really have to avoid

[JuniorMontana01]

Nice thread - newbies should learn more about it. I think if you have a good hand in UTG you should raise pre-flop.
BAD example:

You're dealt KK UTG. blinds: 200/400 and you 5k chips. You smooth call with your cowboys. Players calling behind you but you're still waiting for a raise. Everyone limped at the the table.Flop: 2 8 Q - the flop seems to be safe but too many people limped. SB checks BB moves all in with 7.5k. What do you do? In my opinion it's a fold. A guy who got 7.5k chips didn't donked the others and he seems to be a solid player. But he may have AQ - but he would've raised pre-flop. In my eyes KK is a fold but you call to see what he has. Others folded around and let's see the showdown. You see your opponent's BB special 2 8. It's not over - a K or a Q can hit the board. Turn: 8 River: Q . That's poker. Bad play from the KK. But that's it. Next time you'll be more agressive.

Example 2:

You're dealt 10 J offsuit on the button. You 3-betting from the cut-off. You call you have position and you like your hand. Flop: 7 8 Q. The cut-off checks and you bet the 1/4 of the pot. Turn: A The cut-off checks you check. He calls. River:9. He bets the 1/2 of the pot. and you move all-in. He calls and shows AA. You win with straight. You controlled the pot by betting post-flop. He expected a bet post-turn so checked it. These players are mainly rookies who has not much experience.


Position is very important as everyone emphasize it. Learn more and more.

"In poker, knowledge is power. The more information you have, the better chance you have of accessing your opponent’s hands. The later you act in the round the more information you have. When you are in late position you have already seen what the players before you have done. If there has been a raise and or re-raise you know that some of the players potentially have strong hands and you can fold. If there have been no callers, and you are last to act you can sometimes steal the blind merely by raising with a marginal hand because of your position. You will hear players refer to this play as a positional raise."
/Texas Hold'em - Importance of Position/

[Clownboy R]

The better hands tend to get cracked by fishy or pecular happenstances like Betting into A-A or a pair of suited rags hitting the turn or river.
I am just saying that a more skilled player might use his or her position to avoid certain obsticals that may cost you. I have lost with big hands like Q-Q or K-K hitting a set on the flop and some luck box hits a 7 high flush holding 7-3 os or some stupid like that. LOL
I'm just saying the better the hand the more trouble it can be if you disregaurd the position and the strength another player might have being that you can't read the action if you toss caution to the wind.
I like to Slowplay bigger hands you get more action dat way.

[arjonius]

A lot of players will never learn to appreciate the value of position as much as they could, largely because they only focus on their own hands and play the same regardless of the other players' styles. As a relatively straightforward example, floating a continuation better on the flop when you've missed or only have a modest hand is a better play if you know the opponent is someone who only fires one bullet or who fires twice but bets less without the goods. However, to know that, you need to have been watching in order to spot such tendencies.

[Clownboy R]

YUp the more I learned to allow position to affect my play the greater my win percentage and reading skills grew.
I thought little of position as a novice now having a few more years of wisdom has allowed for much improvement and skill as a player.
The main goal is to put the money In when your ahead I am sure;however, this is not nearly as important as putting it all on the line knowing you have the best hand after the river.
I think having the knowledge that the cards you hold can beat about 85%-90% of the posssible hands is a great position to be in. This is the thing a lot of rooks will take a while to relate to.
It all depends totally on the blind levels and the size of your stack as selectivity goes out the window once you are in danger of being blinded out.
We all roll da dice its just some of us bet the passs line, others bet the field, and some play the one time snake eyes. I pesonally enjoy playing alot more now that I can actually say Skill will carry us on and on.
This is merly one of many stratagies in poker thats why I love playing so much you learn something almost everyday.
Thanks for the input all

[Clownboy R]

this kinda shows the inexperience or over aggresiveness of players trying to do to much to fast. Hope this is also a good example

Started at 24/Mar/08 2307

ladyanderson is at seat 0 with 1455.
johnvegas is at seat 1 with 735.
Clownboy R is at seat 2 with 2405.
jessleazy is at seat 3 with 1500.
mrGLADIUS is at seat 4 with 1435.
tdill99 is at seat 5 with 1280.
STROKER911 is at seat 6 with 1500.
Clink97 is at seat 7 with 1435.
CVU is at seat 8 with 1500.
som101 is at seat 9 with 1755.
The button is at seat 0.

johnvegas posts the small blind of 5.
Clownboy R posts the big blind of 10.
ladyanderson: -- --
johnvegas: -- --
Clownboy R: Ah Ad
jessleazy: -- --
mrGLADIUS: -- --
tdill99: -- --
STROKER911: -- --
Clink97: -- --
CVU: -- --
som101: -- --
Pre-flop:

jessleazy folds. mrGLADIUS goes all-in for 1435.
tdill99 goes all-in for 1280. STROKER911 folds.
Clink97 folds. CVU folds. som101 folds.
ladyanderson folds. johnvegas folds. Clownboy R
calls.
Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:

Clownboy R shows Ah Ad.
mrGLADIUS shows Jc As.
tdill99 shows Ts Jh.

Flop (board: 7c Tc 2c):

(no action in this round)

Turn (board: 7c Tc 2c 7h):

(no action in this round)

River (board: 7c Tc 2c 7h Ac):

(no action in this round)


Showdown:

Clownboy R has Ah Ad 7c 7h Ac: full house, aces full of sevens.
mrGLADIUS has Jc 7c Tc 2c Ac: flush, ace high.
tdill99 has Ts 7c Tc 7h Ac: two pair, tens and sevens.

Hand #51965008-3 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
Clownboy R wins the main pot 3845 with full house, aces full of sevens.
Clownboy R wins the side pot 310 with full house, aces full of sevens.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Woulda slowplayed these guys but they never gave me the chance.
Ill take a quality hand in position all day long.