What I consider the biggest DONK move in tournament poker

[bizwzubi]

Howdy all,

Just got done with another exciting weekend at the wass games, and overall, they were pretty well played and competitive. But, something was driving me crazy, even more than the infamous "donkey calls" that happen. It is what I consider to be the most aggregious of donkey plays made in tournament poker, the dry side-pot bet.

I saw it on quite a few occasions this weekend, and I just want to help some players remember what tournament poker is all about, being the last one with chips, not the most chips until you get to the final three.

For some of you who may not be familiar with the term, a dry side-pot is what is at stake for two or more players that have called an all-in bet. The dry refers to the fact that none of the remaining players have made a re-raise after the all-in bet was made or called. Normally this occurs pre-flop, but can happen post-flop, and means that there is little or no pot in play for the remaining players aside from what the all-in player is eligible for.

Let's start with the reasons why you don't bet a dry side-pot. There is the biggest reason of all, to provide the best opportunity to eliminate a player, and the monitary reason, there are few or no chips to be acquired if you don't get called.

Now, the reasons why you would bet into a dry side-pot. First, you hold the stone cold nuts, and hence will eliminate the all-in bet. Second, you hold second or third nuts and want to make a little cash in case the all-in is holding first nuts.

In either situation, why bet before the river card is thrown? The only reasons to bet before the river would be to push off a draw, in which case you are not yet holding the nuts, or to start building a side pot for your nut draw, which means you don't hold it yet, either. In either situation, you are affording the all-in player even better odds of there all-in hand holding up by betting other players out of the pot with nothing to gain for yourself.

If you are indeed holding the nuts, you don't want to make the bets until the river, allow the others to mistakenly throw there chips in until that point, and then confirm your nut hand as you push the others in for their tournament life.

I am not saying that you can't raise an all-in bet, there are allot of times when you do want to square off heads-up against the all-in, and if that is the case, you should make the raise pre-flop (no longer being a "dry" side-pot). This let's the table know that you want to go heads-up, and if anyone else wants in, they will have to fight you for it.

These hands would typically be the top five (Aces, Kings, Queens and Big Slick suited and unsuited), and sometimes a little looser to the Jacks, Tens, and the suited Ace/Q/J/T, all of which are either favorites or coin-flips for the hand.

So, a good rule of thumb for tournament poker, if you are going to raise an all-in better, do it pre-flop, or wait for the river (while holding a better than average hand, if not the nuts). Don't go betting off the best hands because you made a pair or have a draw. The point is to eliminate the competition (unless, of course, they are your teammate in the BRL).

I think that most of this is pretty clear for allot of players, and, yes, there are a couple of trap plays that can be made with all-in callers (betting your pocket Aces post-flop after tripping up), we all should have no problem there, since it is a trap play (usually meaning a pretty damn good hand).

My biggest reason for writing this tonight is for all the people who try to buy the pot by betting their Ace high, pair, pocket two's, runner-runner outside draw, etc. and let the all-in bet live on. The only thing you accomplish is keeping one more competitor in the game who may take you out by playing the dry side-pot appropriately.

[arjonius]

While I agree that betting into a dry side pot isn't a good idea the majority of the time, I don't think it's as clear cut as you've laid out either. For example, when does it stop being okay to bet? It's clearly fine when you're a long way from the money, but how do you define when it becomes not okay?

Also, even when you're already in the money, how much does the next step up the pay scale have to be before you shouldn't bet?

And then there are situations where your stack size can impact the decision. For instance, say you have a massive stack, enough that eliminating one more person doesn't matter as much as giving yourself the best chance to win the chips in the pot? Or maybe you have a modest stack and again, you feel it's more important to give yourself the best chance to win what's in the pot than to eliminate one person?

[bizwzubi]

Originally Posted by arjonius

W..., say you have a massive stack, enough that eliminating one more person doesn't matter as much as giving yourself the best chance to win the chips in the pot? Or maybe you have a modest stack and again, you feel it's more important to give yourself the best chance to win what's in the pot than to eliminate one person?

This is the misconception allot of people move with, in a dry side pot, you cannot eliminate the entire competition for the pot, since one player is committed for it and will show cards, no matter how much you bet.

If you are making this move based on stack size, or acquiring chips, you should have re-raised to go heads-up, pre-flop, a much more effective way of eliminating any other draw chasers, rather than calling and raising post-flop (yes, even though it means one third less chips in the pot, you are improving your chances that same third, besides, you were looking at the all-ins chips only to begin with).

If you truly feel you are ahead of the all-in post-flop, you HAVE to feel you are ahead of the entire table, with a few exceptions based on solid reads of the players involved and hitting the appropriate cards to bet (you caught a mid straight rainbow, your all-in only pushes high pocket pairs, and the third IS drawing to a higher straight, exacting situations like this), in this situation, by all means, BET!! But if you are at this level, you aren't likely to be making the donkey move I speak of, where you bet without having the all-in beat (since your bet is eliminating the only player who can give you chips that isn't already committed to show their cards at the end).

Last point, if your stack is so massive, eliminating one more person IS more important than the chips in the pot (unless you are afraid there is enough in there to allow another person to get close to you, in which case you better be analyzing the play allot harder since a bad call most definitely could cripple you).

If it was a small sized all-in bet, the chips won't add much to your lead or your competitors ability to catch up (but a bad post-flop bet might), if it is a big all-in and you are willing to go, you want to re-raise and square it off so noone else will just think "I have to call just for the pot-odds", and have a chance at catching up with you.

Again, a dry side-pot is where more than one caller is in for little or no pot other than the all-in amount. Betting into it before the river does more to improve the all-in players chances of surviving than it does for another player to win any more chips.

The donk move is to bet into it post-flop (before the river), without having the all-in bet beat. This is what I called the biggest donk move in tournament poker.

I also do not believe that this is dependent upon the time of the tournament (or which money position is next out), your main concern in a tournament is to be the last person holding chips, thus any person that is eliminated is one more chance you will be that last person. Also, if you are concerned about what level of money position you achieve, each person eliminated at any point in time of the tournament is one more position up in the money you gain.

Yes, acquiring chips is one way to make it further along in a tournament, but the main way is to eliminate the competition while avoiding the same fate yourself. Opting to "try" and acquire chips while improving an all-inners chances by betting into a dry side-pot is like shooting yourself in the foot (improving the all-ins chances) and then shooting yourself in the other foot (not acquiring any chips when everyone folds and the all-in wins).

By all means, you are trying to win pots along the way, but the dry side-pot is one time you have to remember to eliminate players before thinking pots, no matter what time it is.

[andybee]

I too posted about this a few weeks ago....

Check it down with the short stack

got a few positive replys some agree some didnt.... but then the kids took over the post so i just left it ..... im supprised so many wasser cant see this is logical....

is seen pros talk about on poker night live "casper" "Dr tom" Nick Weatherall pro and writer for pocker player mag..... and the all say its such dumb tornement play ...especially as you approach the bubble.

i realy hope other wassers learn from your post i must say i thought you put it better than me....all the talk about donks on this forum.... im not saying this is the bigest donk move ever but it is a real donk move

Andy Bee

[dreilly]

As much as i might agree with this bizwzubi I disagree with this post as a whole, It does piss you off but only because you dont get to see your draws or see if your 2nd pair is best.

Are you saying you have never done this before? To try extract more money from your opponent? I agree bluffing into a dry side pot is stupid but if it is done not knowing there is a player all in it can be easy done you know! I have done it quite a number of times believe me :P

So Dont Critisise players for there bad play...it is not proper etiquette to begin with, calling people out for this is as -EV as making the play in the 1st place. It will end up they dont want to play with you and you will lose money for those times you do have a hand in that situation.

I am fed up of sitting back reading people flaming bad players on this forum constantly. Everyone has to learn somewhere and NONE of us play perfect even very good poker on this forum we all still have soo much to learn so concentrating on your own learning will benefit you more than flaming these "donks" who probably include me

This forum is for poker aticles and discussion not as a place to cry over the quality of the players in our games...remember the better players win in the long run!

[wraslar]

damn skippy! ... I had a player who I won't name follow me from a table last night to have a go at me for my donk play .. 5 handed table, I raised the 200sb 400bb to 1200 with J8 .. . not great hand I know but hey who hasn't tried a chip steal? next player goes allin 2100 .. I should fold I know but it's only 900 chips to call and I have 1200 in already .. folds all round .. he shows QQ I flop a str8 .. sorry mate

my bad play deserves a table chase? .. he then starts arguing with another player at the new table even tho I have said sorry, your hand was best and should have won ... if I'd had fewer chips I would have folded but I had 8k another 900 lost is nothing another player out is better. . . what if i'd folded and he'd then turned over 72off I'd be furious .. ho hum .. if I never see another thread about donks it will be too soon.

[villarge]

Thanks biz for an interesting and informative post. I don't think I make this move as far as I know. If I think my chances are better hu against the allin I will usually put a big re-raise in. However it is good to read someone who's play and knowledge I respect writing a post that seems to confirm that this aspect of my play is in their opinion correct.

Dreilly I do agree with you that there are too many posts on the forum criticising the play of others. However I do not think this post is quite the same. Firstly it is critical of a particular aspect of general play, not of a person's play in particular. Secondly and I think importantly, Biz has explained well why he thinks this play is wrong. I think this helps me to evaluate my own play and perhaps improve my own play.

[arjonius]

For what it's worth, here's something I happened to read about betting into a dry side pot when you're a big chip leader. It changed my thinking, which is reflected in my earliuer post.

"Now, this is the bet for which people often get yelled at, and those “know-it-alls” doing the criticizing are usually dead wrong. Sure, they want to eliminate the player and squeak into the money, but you are the chip leader! There’s no sense in you worrying about “squeaking” into the money. In fact, in some cases you might be better off rooting for the all-in player to survive! If all the other players at your table are playing ultraconservatively, waiting for others to go broke, there is no telling how many free chips will be out there for the taking."

The writer? A player who doesn't seem to find it necessary to call people donks very often, even though the vast majority are relative to him, Daniel Negreanu. The excerpt is taken from his column at
Full Contact Poker : Your online poker community&

should you wish to read it for yourself.

[oups3308]

That's an easy concept, everyone should be able to understand it. But i only agree if you apply it at the very end of the game, like the final table of a MTT or just near the money. I wouldn t blame anyone doing it with 80 players left for example.

I've been playing alot of 10 seats sng's lately, 3 places paid, and i've seen it so many times it's just unbelievable.

2 days ago, i call an all-in with 95os, i was BB, had to put a few more chips to call, it was worth it. Of course i had to fold after the flop because one guy made a bet (there wasn t even a side pot then). And of course the allinner won the pot, where i woulda hit a backdoor straight.

Guess who went 4th a few hands later, just out of the money, yeah me of course.

So thanks Biz for trying to make ppl understand the basics of poker.

[bizwzubi]

OK,

I've generated a little bit of discussion here, and I don't intend to turn tail and run. I actually appreciate all the points that everyone brings to the topic. I must say, though, that I stand by my original opinion that betting into the dry side-pot without having a nut hand (or solid lead on the all-in) is detremental to fundamentally sound play (in other words, a donk move) in tournament poker.

As many have pointed out, betting into the dry side-pot can have merit and value, when approached properly. I hope I let that be known, that there are situations you can bet out. I put my opinions on a few of those situations to help clarify my own opinion (and didn't list all situations, since I do need to keep a couple plays secret to myself).

Dreilly, I didn't intend to call any one person out, as I saw this done by more than a few people recently, my intention was to shed light on why you want to avoid making that move (hence calling it the biggest DONK move, not saying Joe Schmo is a donk for doing this).

And, yes, I have called some people out before, usually in the heat of the moment, but I also usually return to them at a later point and make ammends for my poor etiquette. Unfortunately for me I don't have complete emotional control at the tables mastered, yet. And quit questioning my wisdom, donk, LOL.

Wraslar, your point was a ilttle off my main discussion point, more in-line with my previous op-ed piece on "How can you call with that?!?", but I agree that chasing people from table to table is very tacky. By the way, you got that 10% for me from your money spot a couple weeks ago? LOL

Arjonius, thanks for continuing to contribute different insight. I've actually heard Daniel (and a few others) talk about this as well. I may be wrong about this, but my understanding from them was along the lines of my point about keeping certain smaller stacks from gathering a tripled all-in pot and gaining table momentum, in more of a specific offensive play against the third caller. A play that should be used selectively (as it is quite risky) for a specific purpose.

As to his comment on "Sometimes you want the all-in to win", I'm speculating that this has to do more with letting the little fish nibble each other out and choosing your opposition, but I'm not certain. Either way, both can be valid points, but I would put them under the "atypical play" category.

And, Oups, again, I don't like to put more emphasis on this at any one point in time of a tournament, but that is how I choose to go with it. Though it definitely can bear more impact at the latter stages, as you pointed out, you still have to worry about that freeroll specialist who should have been knocked out in the first level blinds but got saved, only to wind up with a meaty stack and playing maniac at the final few tables (just an example, not citing anyone).

This was originally intended to be an opinion piece or editorial, but it has turned into a great discussion on the play. Thanks to all for contributing, and please, continue to do so. Although I may not elaborate much more on how I play the dry side-pot (especially since Arjonious gleened two more bits out of me) so I can save something for when I face you all on the tables.

P.S. I don't mind using the word donk, although I don't use it that often (I usually work with other four-letter words). Fact of the matter is, I try to use it, get used to it, hardening my emotional facade so I can play better poker by avoiding going on tilt at the mention of a word. God I wish it would start paying off, and pretty fucking soon.