I'm sorry I have to ask this about WassPoker...

[bizwzubi]

But after my recent run, I started digging into some things that maybe I should have done a long time ago.

It all started with a simple question, "How fair is the RNG utilized by WassPoker and the Merge network?"

First I started by googling for analysis of common poker system RNG's, and after not getting anything useful, I tried finding EV analysis or gameplay reports on poker networks. Still not much that answered my questions about merge.

Then I decided to just dig into the WassPoker site and it's "announcements" about it's security system and RNG. While at a glance, the statement may be reassuring, a little more digging has really made me a little less confident in the systems fairness. This is the WassPoker two paragraph statement about it's RNG...

Random number generator

WassPoker.com uses a RNG (random number generator) to ensure that all players are dealt a fair deal hand each and every game. The RNG system produces innumerable permutations and combinations in the 52-card deck that is virtually impossible to predict. The numbers must be unpredictable and not related to each other in any way to be considered truly random.

The WassPoker.com random number generator,has been tested and certified by Gaming Associates on behalf of the Kahnawake Gaming Commission as a part of the licensing process. The random number generator has been found to deal cards from the deck such that each card has an equal chance of being selected unless it had already been dealt in the poker game

Since this statement seems to say that the RNG was rigorously tested and certified to be a fair and reliable system, I decided to see just what the Kahnawake Gaming Commission is and clicked the link on the WassPoker page to find this statement at the Kahnawake site...

About Us

The Kahnawake Gaming Commission, established on 10 Ohiarí:ha/June 1996 pursuant to the provisions of the Kahnawake Gaming Law, MCR No. 26 / 1996-97, is presently comprised of three members appointed by the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake: David Montour (Chairperson), Melanie Mayo, and Kevin Kennedy.

The Commission is empowered to regulate and control gaming and gaming related activities conducted within and from the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake in accordance with the highest principles of honesty and integrity.

You can obtain more information about the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake here.

In other words, three people selected by the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake comprise the Kahnawake Gaming Commission, and they apparently chose the people at Gaming Associates to test the RNG utilized by WassPoker. So I had to google Gaming Associates (since no link was provided at either WassPoker or the Kahnawake website) to find their website and found this statement on what they do in regards to RNG testing...

Gaming Associates provide certification services for gambling systems. Certification can meet client and/or regulatory requirements. Regulatory requirements are generally documented and apply to internet gambling systems. Whereas, customer requirements might relate to sub-systems and components. For example, a random-number-generator (RNG) but not the implementation and operational controls related to that RNG. Certification therefore, has varying complexity, meaning, and cost. Gaming Associates work with clients to established clear scope definition and cost control over certification projects. Our consultants been involved in the certification of internet gaming systems for Tier 1 gaming regulators since the 1997, and 1995 for Tier 1 wagering regulation. Our certification services are recognised around the world be Tier 1 and other government regulators.

I tried to find out how they conducted these tests, and just how much variance there was with the flexibility in meaning, cost, and customer requirements. However, as I was not a member or user of their services, no more information was available to me.

This information (or lack there of) leaves me feeling even less at ease, as it apparently leaves open some discrepancy in the RNG and other sub-systems utilized by Merge, as well as the fact that just how high or low the standards are can be determined by either the regulations or the Merge network itself.

As it was stated on the WassPoker security page, this was part of a process in licensing the site and it's RNG, yet it does not go into more detail about the licensing, what type and location of registry the license is founded, nor how current or commonly reviewed the licensing is or the testing it is based on.

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, and I hate to question anything that so directly involves our forum, but I just want to find sufficient answers to my questions about the true fairness and reliabilty of our chosen poker network and its' RNG. I have all faith that Doc and his team did their due dilligence, but I would love to hear even more.

My hope is that someone who reads this may be able to answer my questions or provide me with more information. I understand that some poker systems don't want to divulge too much information that may inhibit some of their security abilities, but I plan to keep digging as well, as I only see it as serving our intentions to provide some of the best that the Internet has to offer.

P.S. To be fair, I am doing the same thing with the other sites I still utilize after this little eye-opening investigation. While some are a little more open about their RNG, it's testing, and their licensing, others are just as or even more deceptively unclear (whether it is intentional or not)

[Wass Casino (Doc)]

Hi

The Kahnawake gaming commission license and regulate virtually every single major online poker room and casino, they don't set the standard, they ARE the standard...

This is a list of the poker rooms and casinos that they regulate Kahnawake Gaming Commission :: Permit Holders

The integrety of the games, and fundamentaly the RNG software has never had any issues or complaints. These are multi-billion pound companies, and they take their reputation very very seriously...it serves them no purpose to risk it on anything like that

For obvious reasons, the operation methods the RNG systems will not be found online...this does not mean that they are trying to hide things, rather it means they want to protect it...very very few people know how they work.

Thanks
Doc

[FlibbleS]

As far as I'm aware the RNG's are audited by PWC and Deloittes and so any crookedness or faults would be detected under such an audit.

Despite this I'm still convinced that a certain site named after a spongey dessert has a NRRNG

[oups3308]

I was concerned by the MERGE rng as well, everybody knows the river seems to hit every time (don t we all call PDC river.com) and the shitty calls with 62 seem to beat good hands all the time.


Last two months i've been recording the results of preflop all-in hands involving 2 players only wheter or not i was one of the 2 'allinner'. (only recorded hands with Ax against any 2 cards and pocket pair against any 2 cards)
I must say the results are better than i expected.

another couple months and i ll post these results in the forum.

I can get you the file if you need it though ( around 600 hands recorded i think)

Oupsy.

[spiersey]

This is an ongoing point that keeps cropping up in various guises.

If people put as much effort into their own play as they did into trying to prove that online sites are rigged or flawed they might win alot more than they lose.

One of the biggest problems is that most people will remember their bad beats rather than their suck outs. its the human condition. Many people will equate losing to a bad beat even if it is not a bad beat, is goin all in with AQ pre-flop, getting called by AK pre-flop and a Q coming in the 5 board cards really a bad beat? No it is a mathimatical probability that a Q could come in those 5 cards, the AQ may be a dominated hand but as is the norm in poker any 2 cards can win.

Stop all your whinging and stop creating obstacles where there are none. if you don't like the site our feel it is fixed don't play there, but It is most likely a figment of your imagination and you turning a blind eye at your inefficiencies as a poker player.

Yes there have been cases where cheating has gone on at Absolute and at Full Tilt, but these have been very rare. The merge network has not been highlighted in any case of cheating.

Nick

[germanfalcon]

I underwrite nicks statement!

[oups3308]

Originally Posted by spiersey

is goin all in with AQ pre-flop, getting called by AK pre-flop and a Q coming in the 5 board cards really a bad beat? No it is a mathimatical probability that a Q could come in those 5 cards, the AQ may be a dominated hand but as is the norm in poker any 2 cards can win.
Nick

from the hands i recorded AK won 7-2 against AQ put in percentages 77%-23%

Pokerstove says 75%-24%....

Says it all

Oupsy

[bizwzubi]

I feel like I need to explain a little more before I leave this behind me.

After a week of some sick suck-outs, I get inside myself and ask, what did I change? Chalk it up to the odds getting their due.

After two weeks, I put the breaks on any loose game tendencies and go into a solid mode, digging hard into my notes. Chalk it up to kharma.

After three weeks, I go off, write a rant so I don't go kicking a dog, and hope I have burned off any accumulated bad kharma.

After four weeks, I really start to doubt myself and ease off my schedule, dig out some lucky charms.

After five weeks I finally have to start asking questions that I don't really want to.

That is why after five weeks, I started digging into Merge.

True, it may have "seemed" like the odds were going bad when they really weren't, but I keep a pretty decent record, and looked at my track, the odds were definitely not panning out (and not just on the suck-out hands, I looked at all my hands).

Then the recent rash of reports of feeling slighted by the RNG made me even more urgently investigate. It looks to me like allot more people are posting the same sentiments on Wass, of course, maybe they just came crawling out of the woodwork because someone else made the first post to complain/de-stress.

So, as I said, I looked into it. As I said, I found some sites allot more "revealing" about their licensing and testing, while others were even worse. And I wasn't expecting to see a model of the RNG, that would be ridiculous, but I was hoping to find a report, some sort of analysis, the license to be named if not displayed with prominence. I found none of this, and yes, I have found such things for other poker systems.

Hence why I posted my concern here, not to draw accusations, but to gain reassurances, by having all of you post what you had, or had found.

It is my greatest hope that my five weeks have been nothing more than a really bad run and not a faulty system or faulty play, that way I can feel even more confident when the odds start to come back around.

By the way, my leading theory, freeroll influence. With the recent rash of numerous and high staked freerolls, we see allot more variety of "weaker" playing styles.

Especially unsettling were the loose/aggressives that had the ATC mindset. This increased the number of players involved in hands and greatly reduced the number of hands where "playable" hands were involved, both contributing to a great reduction in the odds for any premium hands played.

This also contributed to some players opening up their playing hands in other games after seeing the "randomness" get rewarded, and yet others tighten up too much in other games due to a more solid and defensive stance.

But, even with that theory, I still want to gather as much info as I can, as that is what good players do, so I do not regret asking this question and look forwad to anything that wassers care to provide.

[jupite14]

After you found an answer to all this, I would suggest a secret thread which only you and me can access on Wass. You then tell me your findings, solutions and game plan.

After we succesfully beat all the donks on Wass/Carbon/Poker.com we then open a new official thread and call it "Bragging Rights Rights".

Jupi

[germanfalcon]

I dont know ur hand histories but I can feel the disbelief when having a huge downswing. I had such one in december on poker.com.

I also analyze my game and the hands i loose (or win) and had some really bad suckouts. But some hands I just overplayed and so I doubled my losses.

A lot has to do with implied odds. Someone calls you with gaped suited connectors and hits a monster, if you hit top pair top kicker or more ugly u hit trips, its tricky not to get a suckout. Also its important that you have to show sometimes strength because a lot of players raise with air. Its a kind of a two edged blade and a minefield.

It has nothing to do with the RNG. But you must sharpen your senses.